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UF Philosophy Corner - Ethics by MatthewDBA 2008-10-21 08:21:28
Yay, we're back!

As a preliminary to discussing run.dll's question about animal rights:

  • What is a right?
  • Can there be rights external to a society (that is, rights which exist regardless of whether a given society recognizes them)?
  • Can there exist purely internal rights (rights which have no basis except in the structure of a society)?
  • Is there a distinction between rights and privileges? Can there be a right which is not a privilege? A privilege which is not a right?

Feel free to respond to any or all. Also, please feel free to add new ideas for the Philosophy Corner here.

[ Reply ]
  In order: by werehatrack2008-10-21 08:35:19
    I like all but the first. by tallastro2008-10-21 08:48:31
      Could there ever be a right by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 08:53:44
        Yes, I think so. by tallastro2008-10-21 09:02:17
          I'm not clear on one thing. by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 09:07:59
            I believe werehatrack's claim is that by bitflipper2008-10-21 09:34:39
              Disagree. by werehatrack2008-10-21 09:55:55
                What leads you to believe that by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 09:59:15
                  Rights are consensual. No consensus = no rights. by werehatrack2008-10-21 10:08:46
                    That's a matter of definition, then? by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:11:23
                      Werehatrack and I are pretty close on this one. by tallastro2008-10-21 10:27:08
                Sure it is by bitflipper2008-10-21 10:11:18
                  Is that a right though, or merely a universal by subbywan2008-10-21 10:13:34
                    What is the difference between by bitflipper2008-10-21 10:27:05
                      Perhaps a right is by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:36:49
                        I'm amenable to that by bitflipper2008-10-21 10:50:41
                      No, because "violation" is subjective. by subbywan2008-10-21 10:52:18
                        Sometimes, though, you don't by bitflipper2008-10-21 10:56:20
                          I wanted to get away from the human examples by subbywan2008-10-21 10:59:44
                            O-kay, but it still begs the question by bitflipper2008-10-21 11:20:43
                              There isn't an appeal by subbywan2008-10-21 11:25:20
                                Which is precisely why by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:33:46
                                Which is exactly why I wouldn't :) by subbywan2008-10-21 11:38:55
                                Of course it can by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:47:55
                                Because if it can be taken away, it's conditional by subbywan2008-10-21 11:52:24
                                But a right does not guarantee outcome by bitflipper2008-10-21 12:08:10
                                Then it's not a right. by subbywan2008-10-21 12:32:51
                                Precisely. by bitflipper2008-10-21 12:51:28
                                It does only apply to a few. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:14:48
                                History has demonstrated by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 13:31:32
                                Exactly. What history has demonstrated by bitflipper2008-10-21 13:36:04
                                Rights can't be taken away. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:45:49
                                Then we come back to by bitflipper2008-10-21 13:52:16
                                Which I argue is wishful thinking. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:59:29
                                Then rights exist by dint of those same by bitflipper2008-10-21 14:16:03
                                Nope. i made no such claim by subbywan2008-10-21 14:30:24
                                I think we're dealing with by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 12:52:15
                                Human and societal behaviour and norms. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:16:58
                                Then what is your right to life? by bitflipper2008-10-21 11:41:40
                                I don't have a right to life. by subbywan2008-10-21 11:47:02
                                That would mean, then by bitflipper2008-10-21 11:56:40
                                I will defend myself too, up to and including by subbywan2008-10-21 12:34:25
                                But you would do so in the absence of society, too by bitflipper2008-10-21 12:58:17
                                No. That merely makes it an instinct. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:21:26
                                US citizens *do* have a right to life by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 13:34:17
                                If you can take it away, it's not a right by subbywan2008-10-21 13:39:51
                                And that's where I disagree by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 13:41:47
                                I thought you prefaced the need for a soul by subbywan2008-10-21 13:44:49
                                Maybe. by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 13:49:15
                                fair dinkum. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:51:06
                                It is not that your brother has a greater right by bitflipper2008-10-21 13:50:01
                                Um, the laws are *not* written to apply evenly. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:53:42
                                Actually, they *do* have the right to marry, by bitflipper2008-10-21 14:07:54
                                Because the state is involved there. by subbywan2008-10-21 14:39:47
                        Why should a right imply by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:58:57
                          Because without it, it means nothing. by subbywan2008-10-21 11:00:28
                            In what sense? by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:01:02
                              What is a "right" without something to back it up? by subbywan2008-10-21 11:03:57
                                "Useful" for what? by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:08:06
                                You haven't demonstrated that it is though by subbywan2008-10-21 11:10:11
                                As I posted elsewhere: by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:13:25
                                Isn't that rather the point of philosophy? by subbywan2008-10-21 11:15:16
                                In a way. by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:23:01
                                That is true. by subbywan2008-10-21 11:27:17
                                Which again gets back to by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:35:51
                                Present what you have. by subbywan2008-10-21 11:40:29
                                What I have is primarily definitional by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:47:08
                                What about those without senses then? by subbywan2008-10-21 11:53:47
                                Are you saying that by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 12:02:56
                                I'm questioning your statement of by subbywan2008-10-21 12:39:53
                                I don't see where I mentioned senses by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 12:47:10
                                No, I can't. by subbywan2008-10-21 13:24:11
              I wouldn't say inherent. by tallastro2008-10-21 10:20:48
      I'd agree with tallastro's definition,... by bitflipper2008-10-21 09:30:59
        Heinlein said it best, I think by subbywan2008-10-21 09:55:24
          Is it possible to have by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:03:46
            That's not what he's saying. by subbywan2008-10-21 10:10:06
              Well, I'd say that by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:14:17
                What gives them that right? (n/t) by subbywan2008-10-21 10:15:39
                  Why must a right be "given"? by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:16:14
                    Based on what? by subbywan2008-10-21 10:21:40
                      That depends on by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:33:23
                        scientific evidence, or faith-based? (n/t) by subbywan2008-10-21 10:50:07
                          Are those my only two choices? (n/t) by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:51:44
                            Not if you can think of more. (n/t) by subbywan2008-10-21 10:52:47
                              Evidence that rights are by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:56:36
                                That's a non-answer though. by subbywan2008-10-21 11:06:32
                                Where did laws come into it? by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:10:48
                                No, i think we have the same idea of "human" by subbywan2008-10-21 11:16:39
                                That's not how I see a human. by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:24:51
                                I have no argument with that. by subbywan2008-10-21 11:28:31
                                Again, that gets into a definition of "soul" by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:38:26
                                What makes them rights? by subbywan2008-10-21 11:41:44
                                That's how I define the word, yes. by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:48:56
                                Assuming that is true by subbywan2008-10-21 11:51:13
                                Going with my definition elsewhere by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 12:05:10
                                Which isn't germaine to the discussion though. by subbywan2008-10-21 12:41:31
                                It's not irrelevant by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 12:48:23
                                Then what makes it wrong to define a right by subbywan2008-10-21 13:02:19
                                One could argue that for any word by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 13:05:54
                                But other people can define it according to by subbywan2008-10-21 13:25:36
    As far as your etymology by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 08:52:16
      Mostly. by werehatrack2008-10-21 09:59:01
        So a hermit by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:00:48
          Neither rights nor obligations. by werehatrack2008-10-21 10:06:45
            I might dispute whether there is by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:09:56
  Well .... by MuscleOwl2008-10-21 08:42:33
    We'll probably consider those at some point. by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 08:54:43
      "Freedom," perhaps, needs to be defined by bitflipper2008-10-21 09:42:33
    Here goes... by tallastro2008-10-21 08:54:48
  Rights vs Privileges by subbywan2008-10-21 09:50:23
    I'm not sure of what you're saying in one respect by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 09:55:38
      Don't mind at all. by subbywan2008-10-21 09:59:03
        Would you say then by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:05:06
          Not necessarily, depending on what you mean by by subbywan2008-10-21 10:12:01
            If no other person ever interacts with the hermit by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:15:37
              Only if he gives them to himself, and can by subbywan2008-10-21 10:16:09
                It just seems odd to me by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:17:05
                  You're qualifying. by subbywan2008-10-21 10:22:31
                    They're not? by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:31:08
                      Doesn't mean there isn't one though. by subbywan2008-10-21 10:53:48
                        Except that by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:00:15
                          Much like two wrongs don't make a right by subbywan2008-10-21 11:09:29
                            I think maybe I was misunderstanding by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 11:17:11
        and to really twist this by robertltux2008-10-21 10:40:09
          Only what they can enforce for themselves. (n/t) by subbywan2008-10-21 10:54:24
  Something that just occured to me about Trials by Classic_Jon2008-10-21 10:26:19
  A right is something that is granted to by Peace_man2008-10-21 10:31:48
    If a person never exercises a "right" by MatthewDBA2008-10-21 10:34:38
      Yes, by sgrunt2008-10-21 10:37:14
    In your example, life is a privilege by subbywan2008-10-21 10:56:18
      That's not how I define things. by Peace_man2008-10-21 21:00:38

 

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