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RE: Fred and top sirloin (ridiculously long) by SlyW 2007-10-22 08:10:59
In reference to the post last night (link) a reference was made to Fred (link). I think the following quote does a fine job of discounting rational discussion (emphasis mine):
Second, opponents of socialized medicine seem to think that such a system would be subject to exploitation by grifters and scam artists. They are right. Note that the grifters would not be people receiving care, but Republican doctors who would pad their bills and otherwise skim off unwatched cream. We are all against corruption until it is our turn at the trough.

However, for the sake of discussion, I will entertain further the remainder of Fred's argument.

Basically, as was summarized in the comment, the argument is this: if you are against socialized medicine then you are for the complete dereliction of care for everyone else.

I say, "Not so." I say, "Let's think socialized medicine through economically: not emotionally."

Fred's basis is that the majority of people are "not very smart" and therefore unable to care for themselves medically. Therefore, they need socialized medicine to survive (e.g. Mary Sal Wooten).

Accordingly, those who are smart are politician types and columnists. For the sake of argument, I am going to venture to say that the doctors are smart too. In fact, I am going to risk the assumption that doctors are smarter even than columnists.

Given that assertion, what incentive exists for a very intelligent person to enter into the field of medicine? Why, to make money of course. And how does this person make money? By charging $85 for every visit (15min or 1hr) made by a patient.

Under the realm of socialized medicine, would this number shrink? If so, what happens to the incentive for this very intelligent person to remain in the field of medicine?

Moreover, if the doctor was still paid the $85 for the visit but the patient was not charged the $85, what do you suppose would happen to the frequency of visits? Even at $15 a visit, my family is hesitant to run to the doctor at every bump/scrape/cough/sniffle/etc. If it cost me nothing (and by nothing, I refer you back to the original post regarding the restaurant) then I might be more willing to have the Dr. check out my son's red swollen finger.

My newfound desire to take my kid to the doctor more often is not born out of malice or deceit, but out of a want for the best of myself and my kids. The end result, however, is an increased frequency of visit and, subsequently, a larger expense for the government and an eventual increase in taxes. Yes, I am conjecturing that my attitude is not necessarily dissimilar to those of the "not very smart."

So, we must then address the individual's natural proclivity toward taking advantage (not in the pejorative sense) of a free thing. Do we limit visits to X per month? Do we limit the services available to an individual based on the need as determined by a panel of doctors? A panel of politicians? Who is to say that, under socialized medicine, Mary Sal Wooten is deserving of retinal surgery and/or other treatments for her current condition?

Now, let's enter the world of the absurd. Because Lipitor and similar drugs are so expensive, it is prohibitively expensive to support a nation who gorges itself on fast food. Do you therefore deny this life saving medication to someone because they eat unhealthily? Whose determines "unhealthily?" Will we all have to become organic vegetarians? Since we are in the land of the absurd and since birthing a child is very expensive, if teen pregnancy rates were to rise substantially, would there be a rule forcing abortions?

You see, I do NOT think the worst offenders of socialized medicine are the cheating doctors (Republican if you are Fred) or scam artists looking for an extra cast. No, the worst offenders of socialized medicine are you and myself who, without any (or at least a significantly reduced) economic disincentive would have no reason to not go as often as the sniffles hit.

To not leave Fred's claim unanswered, it is my conviction and belief that all are to be cared for. Socialized medicine is simply pawning that care off on everyone else, not just me. And there are those who really would say, "Screw 'em." Should I force my views and opinions on those people even if I find them callous and uncaring?

For those asking where my solution is, I don't have one. I believe, ultimately, that many problems would be solved if we returned to more traditional values. Family first. A single generation, raised to believe that preceding generations can should be learned from and respected, could affect change in this country the likes of which hasn't been seen in over a century. Further that by fostering the importance of a nuclear family (for the sake of argument, I am simply referring to a monogamous relationship between two people) and the powerful stabilizing effect of "stability" in relationships. In the end, it is the notion that we need to take care of each other as we take care of ourselves.

"Yeah, and socialized medicine takes care of that!" No, it doesn't. It does nothing to engender a sense of responsibility nor does it address the underlying social tendencies toward rogue individualism and isolation; the abandonment of "family."
[ Reply ]
  So cap office visits at $50, don't pay for them by Havoc2007-10-22 08:16:19
    I forgot another aspect.. by SlyW2007-10-22 08:27:43
      Allow ONLY the victim to sue by Havoc2007-10-22 08:38:53
        Okay... now THAT was funny (n/t) by SlyW2007-10-22 08:40:07
      Your thoughts are not borne out by the numbers by cristobal2007-10-22 08:42:39
        Note: Canada is shifting to a two-tier system by SlyW2007-10-22 09:03:47
          I use both tiers of the system by Miss L. Anyus2007-10-22 09:24:15
      Sorry, I'm for socialized medicine. by silverwyvern2007-10-22 08:42:54
        I agree with you to a point. Everythign you said by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 10:01:45
          Exactly. I wish the system could work... by esbita2007-10-22 10:09:18
  Wow, what a lot of hypotheticals. by Didactylos2007-10-22 08:37:22
    See my reply, Canada's system has good outcomes (n/t) by cristobal2007-10-22 08:43:23
      Yes indeed. by Didactylos2007-10-22 08:46:22
        If theory is wrong then why is Canada shifting? by SlyW2007-10-22 09:02:08
          Rich people like convenience. by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:14:06
            BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! by esbita2007-10-22 09:16:46
              What part of my post has caused you mirth? (n/t) by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:19:01
                I'd wager pretty much the whole thing by DesertRat662007-10-22 09:23:44
                Mainly the 3rd paragraph. by esbita2007-10-22 09:29:20
                  You need a viewpoint shift. by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:39:37
                    You also need to figure in Malpractice insurance by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 09:43:50
                    Here is an example of where some of the money goes by vdp2007-10-22 09:45:52
                      And your point? by lheggland2007-10-22 09:50:31
                      Someone is confusing non-profit by DesertRat662007-10-22 09:56:01
                    Cheap? Half of healthcare is *already* paid by esbita2007-10-22 09:49:48
            "Stupidly low taxes" ??? by SlyW2007-10-22 09:21:23
              You do know you have low taxes, right? by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:27:52
                Umm, yeah! by DesertRat662007-10-22 09:31:58
                  Ooh, I know this one! by dodrian2007-10-22 09:39:39
                    Close enough by DesertRat662007-10-22 09:46:41
                      I'd like to see a study done by dodrian2007-10-22 09:53:00
                    This says more about your rich/poor divide by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:50:27
                      Our poor enjoy a negative tax rate by esbita2007-10-22 09:51:47
                      Our "poor" are rich by world standards. by lheggland2007-10-22 09:57:15
                        Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. (n/t) by Didactylos2007-10-22 10:09:25
                          Not. Even. Close. To. Wishful. Thinking. by DesertRat662007-10-22 10:21:01
                            That stuff is all really nice by SnArL2007-10-22 11:09:06
                              You can't MAKE people buy food by subbywan2007-10-22 11:11:29
                                Hold up, there by SnArL2007-10-22 12:04:06
                                But you COULD sell it. (n/t) by subbywan2007-10-22 12:06:48
                                Correction: by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 12:10:46
                                Not at all. by subbywan2007-10-22 12:13:34
                                Depends on where you live by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 12:33:25
                                It's not optimism. by subbywan2007-10-22 12:44:50
                                Maybe it's different experience by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 12:56:30
                                Welfare =! Unemployment Insurance by lheggland2007-10-22 12:19:26
                              The link also covers food and nutrition by DesertRat662007-10-22 11:26:06
                          Lets think about this, by lheggland2007-10-22 10:28:59
                            I was comparing the US with other first world by Didactylos2007-10-22 10:38:50
                              You are naive by subbywan2007-10-22 10:44:57
                                It's not clear from the source by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 10:52:15
                                Census Bureau Poverty Level by Stuka2007-10-22 10:56:20
                                The census shouldn't define "poor" by subbywan2007-10-22 10:56:56
                                The Bureau of the Census by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 11:03:55
                                fair enough :) (n/t) by subbywan2007-10-22 11:05:13
                              It sounds like you're focusing on relative poverty by esbita2007-10-22 10:47:03
                              The average poor American has more living space by DesertRat662007-10-22 10:52:51
                              Question: Where in your previous statements do by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 10:54:06
                                Sorry, the claim was in lheggland's post by Didactylos2007-10-22 10:57:06
                                Understood, I didn't see it and thought I would by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 11:10:18
                              The first time I ever saw poeple living by lheggland2007-10-22 10:54:50
                                Have you ever BEEN on welfare? by SnArL2007-10-22 11:12:35
                                My best friend was for some time by DesertRat662007-10-22 11:23:27
                                The rules have changed *somewhat* since then. by esbita2007-10-22 11:25:47
                                Yeah, He got caught in that by DesertRat662007-10-22 11:30:11
                                That's a vastly different experience than what MY by SnArL2007-10-22 11:33:52
                                Trouble is, states set the benefit levels. by esbita2007-10-22 11:42:39
                                And a state that pays well, often gets flooded by subbywan2007-10-22 11:47:33
                                That's really messed up by SnArL2007-10-22 11:59:11
                                All the more reason the feds should stay out of by subbywan2007-10-22 12:07:51
                                I agree wholehartedly (n/t) by SnArL2007-10-22 12:20:33
                                The GF you met is on food assistance by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 11:27:11
                                I've known other people who CAN'T feed their by SnArL2007-10-22 12:25:00
                                Are they on the Lone star card or do they get $ ? by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 12:34:20
                                These people were in Phoenix by SnArL2007-10-22 13:16:56
                                Ahh, yes, My sister used to teach there... by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 15:13:24
                                Nope, by lheggland2007-10-22 11:34:13
                                Most welfare folk aren't the problem by subbywan2007-10-22 11:41:01
                                Yup by SnArL2007-10-22 11:55:31
                          No. Just not naive. See DR's posting. (n/t) by subbywan2007-10-22 10:31:22
                Yes, by dodrian2007-10-22 09:34:20
                Yes. Don't you want lower taxes? by SlyW2007-10-22 09:37:00
                  And funny how Ireland's been growing. by esbita2007-10-22 09:39:06
                  Because I really enjoy by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:44:54
                    And what is the incentive to improve the system? ( (n/t) by SlyW2007-10-22 09:49:31
                      Lower taxes, better quality services. by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:58:56
                        The only problem with that is that politicians by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 10:04:43
                        In other words by DesertRat662007-10-22 10:04:57
                        A problem with politicians is, by dodrian2007-10-22 10:54:17
            no one in america is refused by tesla_koil2007-10-22 09:22:37
      It has, *BUT* by subbywan2007-10-22 10:27:37
    "MediCare is amazingly cheap and efficient" by lheggland2007-10-22 08:46:16
      Prove it. by Didactylos2007-10-22 08:48:06
        Oh, and Google provides by Didactylos2007-10-22 08:53:12
        Come sit at my desk. by esbita2007-10-22 08:59:39
          Or talk to the GF's Mom who works the by Classic_Jon2007-10-22 09:49:20
      You forgot the "By comparison" (n/t) by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 08:48:24
    Medicare *is* "cheap and efficient" by Stuka2007-10-22 09:06:23
      I never said it was *good*.... by Didactylos2007-10-22 09:17:36
      Misdirection by design by Stibbons2007-10-22 10:02:25
        They also forget about the third party billers. by lheggland2007-10-22 10:09:00
  I'd welcome socialized healthcare by tesla_koil2007-10-22 09:09:23
    You evil plutocrat! by esbita2007-10-22 09:14:09
      I could give a rats a2 by tesla_koil2007-10-22 09:21:37
        The trouble is... by esbita2007-10-22 09:36:47
          consider the effect socialized medicine would by tesla_koil2007-10-22 09:57:11
            Yep and imagine the carnage by DesertRat662007-10-22 10:00:52
              hmmm I'll have to ponder that one. by tesla_koil2007-10-22 10:03:17
                Went through one earlier this year by DesertRat662007-10-22 10:10:38
                Any. Inconveniently, medicine's not manufacturing by esbita2007-10-22 10:11:38
            Kindasorta. by esbita2007-10-22 10:07:27
        Health insurance (not group) by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 09:40:10
        If your example of $12 is a good example... by theanomaly2007-10-22 09:41:49
          I should have added that is cignas by tesla_koil2007-10-22 09:55:37
            That's close to the price by MatthewDBA2007-10-22 10:09:31
      Heh... by imperito2007-10-22 09:32:36

 

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