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Ordnance-Corner For UFies | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 10:45:40 |
| Why the gun is civilization |
by DesertRat66 |
2007-07-27 10:50:37 |
I am quoting Munchkin Wrangler's Original Post here Snopes addicts will find this essay listed which Munchkin Wrangler addresses here
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act. |
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[ Reply ] |
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There is one caveat to that | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 10:55:39 |
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All things being equal you'd be right | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 11:03:17 |
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Only within certain, limited, conditions. | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:07:07 |
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You'd be surprised | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 11:08:39 |
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He was walking home after going to the | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:09:11 |
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Should've gone in the front door? ;-) (n/t) | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 11:10:12 |
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Why ? | by aix tom | 2007-07-27 11:11:26 |
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That's how he gets to the front door :) (n/t) | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:12:21 |
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Front door in the alleyway? | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 11:13:14 |
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Nope ... he was just passing through it | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:18:29 |
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Long block, or slow walker? :-) (n/t) | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 11:25:10 |
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Both. Neither :P (n/t) | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:26:44 |
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Hmm. So he's a long slow block walker? (n/t) | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 11:28:49 |
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Yes, and no :P (n/t) | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:31:28 |
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In that case | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 11:32:58 |
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Not at all | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:35:08 |
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Only one thing | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 11:39:12 |
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Still bad assumptions on your part | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:42:11 |
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Man has to become a shadow warrior | by veran | 2007-07-27 12:06:49 |
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exactly. | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:14:45 |
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Correct | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:19:11 |
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look at what you've stated: | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:23:29 |
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Which is what I've said from the start (n/t) | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:25:16 |
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That may have been what you intended, but it's not | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:31:51 |
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Step back a bit further | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:34:17 |
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No, not very | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:43:50 |
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There is that assumption | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 13:02:06 |
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And even then, it may still not be enough | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 13:03:36 |
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Yep -- Have to live it for it to work. | by Twitchh | 2007-07-27 17:02:52 |
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And the likelihood of that happening | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 11:07:49 |
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Still, crunching the numbers I have been given | by veran | 2007-07-27 12:09:08 |
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Numbers don't always mean all that much | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:12:15 |
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That's possible | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:20:14 |
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Depends on how you define marksman | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:28:02 |
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In terms of positioning and supplies | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:39:23 |
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Not sure exactly what you mean | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:55:48 |
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Bear in mind too, | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:58:50 |
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I don't view him as an exception | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 13:04:05 |
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Doesn't matter. | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 13:06:48 |
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A guy I sometimes work with was career Marine. | by RetiQlum2 | 2007-07-27 13:27:33 |
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That is 'Nam, that is war | by veran | 2007-07-27 13:39:23 |
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Armed encounters of any type | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 15:57:28 |
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But when being held up at kwikimart, | by veran | 2007-07-27 16:07:17 |
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the chances of moi, civilian dude, | by veran | 2007-07-27 13:35:08 |
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question on the whole Gun V knife thing | by robertltux | 2007-07-27 12:49:01 |
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I've heard that a human can cover 21 feet in a | by PsychoI3oy | 2007-07-27 12:56:38 |
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so don't draw | by veran | 2007-07-27 13:40:37 |
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That would be most commonly | by ManiacJoe | 2007-07-27 15:23:09 |
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At least it's not in your belt... (n/t) | by veran | 2007-07-27 15:30:45 |
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Yes, it is known as the Tueller Drill | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 13:27:07 |
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So many things wrong with this -- every paragraph | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 11:01:19 |
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That makes absolutely no sense. | by esbita | 2007-07-27 11:09:50 |
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I am pointing out the erroneous conclusion | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 11:28:50 |
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False assumption | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:31:12 |
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You're missing a critical difference. | by leistico | 2007-07-27 11:39:27 |
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Thanks, you've summed it up. (n/t) | by esbita | 2007-07-27 11:45:06 |
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They are equal in that they both harm someone. | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 11:46:41 |
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You're ignoring degree. (n/t) | by esbita | 2007-07-27 11:48:21 |
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I'm not certain *degree* is the difference. | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:03:10 |
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Degree *is* a difference. | by esbita | 2007-07-27 12:07:42 |
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Good | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:09:10 |
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That is your choice, and I respect that. | by esbita | 2007-07-27 12:10:55 |
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And also with you :-) | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:13:46 |
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You advocate a nanny-state | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:48:22 |
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You call it nanny-state. I call it | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 11:51:17 |
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Need a shovel to move that goalpost? (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 11:54:28 |
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Yes. | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 11:54:44 |
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OK, smart guy. What exactly is it that defines | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 11:57:31 |
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American Heritage Dictionary? | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:00:53 |
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Don't seen anything in there about being nice ... (n/t) | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:01:48 |
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Nor about governments. (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:03:02 |
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Do you agree that record keeping and | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:02:53 |
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Why does that purpose have to be | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:03:54 |
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Nice ........ | by aix tom | 2007-07-27 12:06:22 |
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It never was :P | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:07:32 |
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I asked whether he agreed with the | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:07:35 |
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You don't HAVE to agree. | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:09:07 |
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I asked if he agreed with it. I'll ask you the sam | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:17:25 |
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Again, you're operation on a flawed idea of | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:20:31 |
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What is "pinnacle of civilization"? | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:21:19 |
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Civilization has a pinnacle? | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:22:59 |
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Fundamental question for you, Peace... | by leistico | 2007-07-27 12:23:58 |
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I'm certainly capable of changing my | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:32:22 |
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Funny, how a source was provided. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:34:26 |
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What's your definition then? | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:09:31 |
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I agree with that definition, yes. | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:13:08 |
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I think he is using the 'european' version | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 12:24:56 |
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That's History. 'mericans are short-sighted in | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:27:39 |
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The Aztecs come to mind, for example. | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:07:40 |
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Nice try. (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:04:00 |
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"Red tape" | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:06:03 |
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Is that then what you consider the measure | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:09:41 |
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He already gave you the definition. (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:11:52 |
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You appeared to be proposing | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:16:29 |
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Red tape is what happens with nannystates | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:10:56 |
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What defines "pornography"? | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:00:56 |
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Let's try a different direction then. | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:06:30 |
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Care to provide answers? (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:08:23 |
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*hands you an mp3 player in recording mode* | by esbita | 2007-07-27 12:10:09 |
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There's NEVER a point | by SnArL | 2007-07-27 12:33:14 |
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Is that like: | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:37:25 |
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Yup. Thank you Baldrick. | by SnArL | 2007-07-27 12:49:49 |
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I have a computer network all around me. | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:52:12 |
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:D (n/t) | by SnArL | 2007-07-27 12:54:17 |
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Civilization has a purpose? | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:13:19 |
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Kind of like | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:17:28 |
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Civilization is a goal worth aiming for. | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:25:09 |
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Why is that goal worth aiming for? | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 12:29:27 |
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You first. | by esbita | 2007-07-27 12:31:02 |
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But not doing so makes it SO much easier to move | by SnArL | 2007-07-27 12:34:35 |
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I don't know if I can name a specific culture | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:36:14 |
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One problem with that: | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:42:22 |
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So now you advocate feudalism? | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:37:30 |
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What you call civilization has repeatedly shown | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 11:56:02 |
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Only if the assumptions for the syllogism are | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:01:19 |
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But how can you be sure both are correct? | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:05:58 |
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Yes, it has been. During the medical examination | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:06:56 |
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wouldn't a draft | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:16:22 |
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Not if the nurse is eye candy. (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:17:32 |
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*resolutely makes no comment whatsoever* | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:21:14 |
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Well, she was. (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:22:04 |
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I think you have misunderstood what I call | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:14:59 |
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Subby put it nicely. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:16:59 |
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No, unwilling. | by esbita | 2007-07-27 12:24:14 |
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Point taken. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:26:08 |
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Perhaps if we all knew what your definition of | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:41:34 |
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You know what MY goal is? What *I* aim for? | by SnArL | 2007-07-27 12:47:02 |
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That's just silly! | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 13:06:52 |
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No harder than me being able to fly | by SnArL | 2007-07-27 13:19:06 |
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And I call it faschism | by veran | 2007-07-27 15:33:02 |
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My valuation of human life... | by leistico | 2007-07-27 12:18:00 |
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I'm a bit uncomfortable | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 11:56:45 |
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You should really read the article | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:03:07 |
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a succinct summary of the issue: | by plblark | 2007-07-27 12:17:53 |
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And I can speak from experience | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 12:24:12 |
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It does say much about the adverse effects | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 12:40:07 |
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Hint | by plblark | 2007-07-27 12:43:08 |
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Experience has shown that this | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 13:10:07 |
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That is why we limit the circumstances | by ManiacJoe | 2007-07-27 13:19:01 |
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Tried and failed | by subbywan | 2007-07-27 12:45:42 |
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Germany limited teh number of guns, too. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:47:02 |
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There is no evidence for this | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 12:47:31 |
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It is impossible. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:50:06 |
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I didn't ask you :P | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 12:54:45 |
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Doesn't keep me from answering. :P | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:59:28 |
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Oh I know it's impossible | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 13:08:00 |
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A gun doesn't even require metal to work. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 13:10:08 |
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Wodden guns shouldn't last long enough | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 13:13:30 |
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If it is too expensive to get a gun, a criminal | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 13:15:59 |
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No no 'guns are bad' | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 13:23:13 |
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Ever read the Nightwatch novels by Pratchett? | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 13:27:18 |
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Hasn't everyone :) (n/t) | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 13:34:25 |
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My brother hasn't. ;) (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 13:39:21 |
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Funny how it touches from both directions. | by vetitice | 2007-07-27 15:50:50 |
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As you said: No effect on violence. | by Peace_man | 2007-07-27 13:13:25 |
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Back that up with numbers, please. (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 13:16:41 |
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Does not follow | by hyzenthlay | 2007-07-27 13:19:42 |
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Once again your abuse of 'logic' fails | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 15:47:33 |
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The repercussions are a whole other matter... | by leistico | 2007-07-27 12:10:10 |
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The reason I feel uncomfortable about | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:44:28 |
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You miss the point: | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:48:24 |
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My point is | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:50:04 |
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And everybody has taken that point. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:51:15 |
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Okay. | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:53:38 |
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Yes, but someplace else. | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 12:54:55 |
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The problem with subthreads | by MatthewDBA | 2007-07-27 12:56:50 |
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Same here. :| (n/t) | by CynicalRyan | 2007-07-27 13:00:15 |
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Please, do tell | by DesertRat66 | 2007-07-27 11:19:47 |
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Kinda gives the phrase 'F-Bomb' a whole 'nother | by Havoc | 2007-07-27 13:27:47 |