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Attn: Naruki by Ravenlock2006-11-19 12:55:59
  To distinguish... by Naruki 2004-07-12 10:23:09
I would first like to state that my discussions on this issue are primarily about logical relationships. Anyone who takes illogical relationships is crazy and thus outside the scope.

That said, there are two areas in which to consider the Free Will vs Predestination debate: reality and belief.

Reality means that we either have Free Will or we don't (it's Predestined). Belief is just which of those two people believe in.

Now, Free Will means that we actively choose our course in life. The decisions we make could just as easily go one way as another, and God Himself won't know until we make them.

Predestination means that everything we do was preprogrammed - we _think_ we are making decisions, but our course of action was plotted probably from the Big Bang.

The debate is usually considered in religious contexts, but it's still possible to suggest Predestination without the need for a Supreme Being or Creator. Whatever.

The reality of what we have is unknown to us. What we believe, however, is known. And, obviously, what you believe in may be wrong.

As I stated before, the only real consequence of believing in Predestination is that, logically, you are not responsible for your actions. Free Will means that you are. What "responsible" turns out to be is anyone's guess, but that doesn't disqualify the distinction.

Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you, but to me, it is much more logical to believe in Free Will. I am not fettered with religious concepts at all, so it's easier.

I don't know much about Calvinists, but based on what you said, they are atypical Christians. Since they don't challenge my statement at all, I'll leave them out.

It is impossible to fit all sects into consideration, so I naturally - when generalizing - consider the most well-known aspects of Christianity. One of them is the existence and purpose of Heaven and Hell (which, I have since learned, are disputed among the various sects). Still, the most popular conception is that Hell is a place of torment and Heaven a place of joy.

Sin and go to Hell forever. Be good and go to Heaven.

In that sense, true believers have no free will, despite being "allowed" to make actual choices. If you really believe, and you are not insane, you will do good OR ELSE.

Hope that helps.
[ Reply ]
    And I think your characterization is wrong. by Ravenlock2004-07-12 10:50:50
      I probably ought to clarify... by Ravenlock2004-07-12 11:04:40
      s/3( \")/4\1/ ? ;) (n/t) by LionsPhil2004-07-12 11:10:12
        Ow, that hurt. by Ravenlock2004-07-12 11:27:00
          You said 3 groups. by Naruki2004-07-12 11:31:32
            Wow, what a useless reply. :-p by Ravenlock2004-07-12 11:42:00
              Doh! I'm sorry. :-( by Ravenlock2004-07-12 11:47:29
                ATTN UFIES! by Naruki2004-07-12 12:00:38
                  Thanks. You know I've got your back, too. ;-) (n/t by Ravenlock2004-07-12 12:12:10
            Yup. by LionsPhil2004-07-12 11:43:03
      Can anyone claim to speak for what by Naruki2004-07-12 11:57:33
        Attempt at answers. by Ravenlock2004-07-12 12:11:38
          Well... by Naruki2004-07-12 12:44:03
            Not "haven't thought about it." "Don't know." by Ravenlock2004-07-12 12:58:00
              What I meant was that you currently hold by Naruki2004-07-12 13:07:12
                *Shrug* I went through "Battleground God" by Ravenlock2004-07-12 14:09:19
                  Nobody *knows* the rules. So what? by Naruki2004-07-12 14:14:37
                    Why? by Ravenlock2004-07-12 14:27:49
                      The "He" for God is arbitrary, by the way. by Ravenlock2004-07-12 14:29:44
                        Maybe it's a canine gender. by Naruki2004-07-12 14:35:45
                          :-p (n/t) by Ravenlock2004-07-12 14:55:26
                      Ah... by Naruki2004-07-12 14:35:08
                        Sorry I didn't make it more clear. by Ravenlock2004-07-12 14:55:03
                          It's not inconsistent... by Naruki2004-07-12 14:58:19
                            You haven't stated... by Ravenlock2004-07-12 15:03:09
                              Didn't want to be redundant. by Naruki2004-07-12 15:23:58
                                Fair enough. :-p by Ravenlock2004-07-12 15:28:51
                                And you're probably right. by Ravenlock2004-07-12 15:29:40
                                Actually, one more clarification... by Ravenlock2004-07-12 15:39:33
    but its not quite that simple, Naruki by gibuu2004-07-12 13:19:14
    Predestination by Mad_Peter2004-07-12 15:23:10
      So they're insane. by Naruki2004-07-12 15:27:30
        That was what I was trying to... by Ravenlock2004-07-12 15:42:34
          I thought Calvinism had died the death such a bass by Mad_Peter2004-07-12 16:23:35

 

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