| Re: I'd like to object to one phrase that is |
by Thalas_shaya |
2002-10-14 13:54:32 |
(from yesterday's discussion of Naruki's question from the day before...)
<snip snip from adiplomat>
The position of Christians IS that if you want to be a Christian, you cannot be homosexual. The Bible clearly forbids it. That's IT! No lynch mobs, no discrimination in any sense other than not being allowed to be a Christian. It's between you and God. (whether you believe in Him or not.)
<end snippage>
I do believe, I AM Christian, and I am a practicing lesbian in a committed relationship.
There are Christian churches which accept homosexuals. One of the pioneers was actually founded by homosexuals in the 60's and is called the MCC (Metropolitan Community Church). They have a sometimes spotty history of reverse-discrimination, but are generally good group of folks who are trying to be open to everyone. A lot of Christians who grow up in a church and figure out that they're gay have a traumatic load of self-hatred and guilt, especially at first. They've suddenly found this niche where relationships make sense and they're finally comfortable in their own skin, but they've grown up all their lives "knowing" that it's wrong. The MCC does a lot of counseling with new members on this subject, and it can be enlightening for people of all persuasions to look at the content of the discussion.
Basically, what it comes down to is that the Leviticus 18 passage refers to several idolatrous practices observed in worship of the fertility god Molech. The verse forbids (among other things) men to lie with men as they lie with women, because it is "abomination" or "detestable". It's the same Hebrew word (toevah) used to condemn "temple prostitutes" but DIFFERENT from the word used to condemn prostitution in general (zimah). Leviticus 20 specifies punishments for crimes and refers back to Leviticus 18 using the same word "toevah". A better translation of toevah is "detestable impiety".
Genesis 19 (Sodom & Gomorrah) is a condemnation of rape and inhospitality (compare to a similar tale in Judges 19 regarding the inhospitality of the people of Gibeah). There are several places in the Bible that refer back to the sins of Sodom (Ezekiel 16 is one), and they refer to things like uncharitable behavior, ingratitude, laziness, detestable impiety (reference to the fertility cult in Sodom) and inhospitality. Keep in mind that whether the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were gay or straight, rape is wrong, and that's what they were trying to do to the angels visiting Lot.
Romans Chapter 1 likewise refers to the fertility practices observed by polytheistic Romans who were engaging in both hetero- and homo- sexual acts during their worship services. In Christian and Jewish religion, sex acts are prohibited from worship, regardless of who is engaging in them.
Nowhere in the entire Bible does Jesus refer to homosexuality or homosexual acts.
What the Bible prohibits are homosexual acts performed in public or in violence or as part of worship. It also prohibits heterosexual acts under the same circumstances.
I'm at work and I don't have time to finish this in any detail. If you're interested, discuss, rebut, argue, post, quibble, pick nits, add info, etc. I'll be back after work to see your reactions. If you're REALLY interested, I'll post some links later today, or you can google yourself. A good starting phrase is "ex-gay nomad"... |
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[ Reply ] |
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Wow. | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 14:03:30 |
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Right on! | by krupa | 2002-10-14 14:37:07 |
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Are you sure? | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 14:40:54 |
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Well sure I've experimented | by krupa | 2002-10-14 14:44:01 |
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It's good to experiment. | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 14:45:56 |
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I once played around with joy for a while too... | by krupa | 2002-10-14 15:02:36 |
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That's when you're supposed to make Merry! (n/t) | by webishop | 2002-10-14 15:14:51 |
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Isn't that Hobbit forming? (n/t) | by toxin | 2002-10-14 15:37:21 |
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ow... painful pun... (n/t) | by krupa | 2002-10-14 17:29:17 |
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same for me! (n/t) | by jeditheduck | 2002-10-14 18:31:31 |
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additional note for clarification purposes... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 14:46:25 |
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I DEMAND SATISFACTION! | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 14:49:34 |
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Granted! | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 15:09:08 |
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Oh, that was nice. | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 15:13:39 |
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I... can't... get... no.... | by sumbusch | 2002-10-14 20:54:40 |
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I can just hear Britney covering it that way... (n/t) | by BlurOfSerenity | 2002-10-14 21:07:40 |
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ack! ack! ack! (n/t) | by sumbusch | 2002-10-14 21:38:10 |
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While you're at it... | by toxin | 2002-10-14 14:56:57 |
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Possible explanation | by skeptic | 2002-10-14 15:49:41 |
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OK Makes intellectual sense... | by toxin | 2002-10-14 16:09:19 |
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Have some soap :) (n/t) | by hyzenthlay | 2002-10-14 16:11:26 |
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As a "straight", mostly Christian guy... | by SenexSalax | 2002-10-14 15:11:42 |
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hmm for some I think the phobia is | by Arienadean | 2002-10-14 15:58:44 |
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Just to play Devil's Advocate here for a sec | by rogueneuron | 2002-10-14 16:44:20 |
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hmm yes and no | by Arienadean | 2002-10-14 17:18:17 |
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It's certainly rude to make vulgar comments | by rogueneuron | 2002-10-14 17:25:32 |
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BUT... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 17:25:12 |
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Just out of curiousity | by Buffy_Fett | 2002-10-14 20:29:52 |
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To name just a few: | by xcheopis | 2002-10-14 20:56:26 |
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wasn't there something done once | by Arienadean | 2002-10-14 23:28:56 |
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But there is more than one thing | by Arienadean | 2002-10-14 23:26:30 |
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sorta nitpick: | by whybird | 2002-10-14 23:33:22 |
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ack eww the visions... | by Arienadean | 2002-10-14 23:47:17 |
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oh and the commentary at the time said | by Arienadean | 2002-10-14 23:47:44 |
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can't help it... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-15 07:00:42 |
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dirty little confession.... | by sumbusch | 2002-10-14 21:15:30 |
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not so dirty... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-15 06:29:26 |
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Interesting argument | by skeptic | 2002-10-14 15:12:57 |
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But your arguments | by hyzenthlay | 2002-10-14 15:57:31 |
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good points, plus... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 15:58:47 |
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Hey... | by gaygeek | 2004-02-28 17:02:16 |
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Unfortunately for you and other homosexuals | by NOLAWitch | 2002-10-14 15:25:38 |
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Excuse me | by Buffy_Fett | 2002-10-14 20:39:47 |
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I have previously stated that disagreeing | by adiplomat | 2002-10-14 23:00:46 |
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If you follow the Bible | by hyzenthlay | 2002-10-14 16:01:55 |
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yeah, i agree, and... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 16:24:40 |
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Yup | by hyzenthlay | 2002-10-14 18:30:02 |
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Interpret and equivocate as you like... | by rogueneuron | 2002-10-14 16:24:49 |
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true, but... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 16:50:27 |
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That's an excellent assessment | by rogueneuron | 2002-10-14 17:15:06 |
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And who said they should be? | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 17:28:18 |
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Turn the other cheek does not extend | by rogueneuron | 2002-10-14 17:42:41 |
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There is a double standard?! | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 17:51:02 |
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I believe he is referring to | by Buffy_Fett | 2002-10-14 20:43:47 |
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Agenda? | by gaygeek | 2002-10-14 20:56:34 |
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Hey | by Buffy_Fett | 2002-10-14 21:07:40 |
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I know | by gaygeek | 2002-10-14 21:20:06 |
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teaching tolerance... | by sumbusch | 2002-10-14 21:37:11 |
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but it's not a purely religious issue... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 18:03:50 |
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right on, naruki... and... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 17:44:29 |
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Just a thought... | by richyr1 | 2002-10-14 22:56:11 |
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Two notes... | by Arcanum | 2002-10-14 18:00:25 |
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Well, that makes sense. They are all taught | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 18:04:22 |
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Eeewwwww! | by Arcanum | 2002-10-14 18:08:47 |
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Think nice thoughts. Calm thoughts... | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 18:21:05 |
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*twitches* | by Arcanum | 2002-10-14 18:26:26 |
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LOL.... | by sumbusch | 2002-10-14 21:44:01 |
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agreed... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 18:09:57 |
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However | by andrej | 2002-10-15 00:55:38 |
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I think... | by Illiad | 2002-10-14 17:00:50 |
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HAHAHAH! | by Illiad | 2002-10-14 17:16:24 |
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I thought so, too. | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 17:21:12 |
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Lart! Lart! Lart! | by sumbusch | 2002-10-14 21:04:20 |
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Quote time... | by gaygeek | 2002-10-14 17:09:40 |
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Jesus' silence | by see | 2002-10-14 17:44:35 |
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but he talks about a lot of things... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-14 18:16:59 |
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Not really | by Buffy_Fett | 2002-10-14 20:50:45 |
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wow, quite the debate. This is why I'm glad... | by BlurOfSerenity | 2002-10-14 19:39:59 |
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Same here. | by Naruki | 2002-10-14 20:20:50 |
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Catholics and condoms. | by Sehmket | 2002-10-14 21:03:21 |
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hmm only one comment | by Arienadean | 2002-10-14 23:43:12 |
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Artificial/natural birth control... | by Thalas_shaya | 2002-10-15 07:16:44 |
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To whom it may concern: | by Buffy_Fett | 2002-10-14 21:28:34 |
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First off, I'll agree that the Bible can be, and | by adiplomat | 2002-10-14 23:54:01 |
