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<sigh> Please forgive my country, as it seems by adiplomat2006-11-19 12:55:59
  I am looking forward to the US invading Holland! by bavvy2002-07-09 01:19:27
    Bush is correct. by slayer2002-07-09 01:35:51
      By the reasoning by SaleGamine2002-07-09 01:41:55
        That is my point. by slayer2002-07-09 01:52:38
          No, because that is another basic human right by bavvy2002-07-09 01:57:35
            Freedom of speech is not a human right by slayer2002-07-09 02:06:35
              Humans are not cruel by bavvy2002-07-09 02:10:24
                Oh yeah? by breezeblock2002-07-09 02:15:21
                  The fact that it is not respected by bavvy2002-07-09 02:23:49
                    Sorry to disappoint you but it does. by breezeblock2002-07-09 03:02:18
                      "Right" does not mean bullet-proof by tigermouse2002-07-09 04:50:42
                        Seems that our definition of "right" are confused! by breezeblock2002-07-09 05:01:49
                          *Hurks enormous stone at breezeblock* by tigermouse2002-07-09 05:11:41
                            In whose eye? by breezeblock2002-07-09 05:22:02
                              ...and furthermore! by breezeblock2002-07-09 05:53:57
                                I'm with you on this one. by Naruki2002-07-09 10:54:27
                                mmm, okay by tigermouse2002-07-09 11:40:47
                                Naruki didn't say that at all. Reread hir post. by flamebait2002-07-09 13:45:33
                                Rights... by slacktime 2002-07-09 15:37:03
When looked at from an atheistic point of view I have to agree. If there is no moral authority higher than the law of the land, then there really is no way to create "inalienable rights".

The idea of such rights in our civil documents came from the belief that there was a higher authority, and that that authority had established that when men (using the term as a generic term for the human species) treat each other as they should, these rights ought be honored. This has some background stemming (I believe) from the European concept of "The Devine Right of Kings" meaning, as I take it, that the Being(s) who shaped our world established governments (and laws) framed to protect the rights of its citizenry. Those rights stem from the moral code of the God or Gods evoked as granting those rights. The just laws of that country then are framed to protect the rights they believe are morally just as established by Diety.

(I have tried to be as generic as possible here, for it matters not at all to my discussion which God(s) the society is based upon, but only on the fact that some devine providence set rules by which people should live)

If there is no higher power, then there is no universal standard of morality, and if that does not exist, then when your society is populist in structure as in Democracies, you will have rules based on what is popular, or in an autocratic society you will have rules based on the whim and power of the ruler. Either way, you will find that you have no rights as the shifting sands of whim and popular fads ebb and flow around your society.

I personally prefer to believe in God, that He has established a set of laws by which people should live if they are to be happy. Those rules are the basis of rights and they are granted by an authority greater than the arm of government. They are protected by the just laws framed by the government of the land. And when sufficient abuses by the government occurs, then it is my right and duty to change that government, preferably through the legal processes established to change the government. By rebellion (as per the Declaration of Independence) when that fails.

If such a God, or Gods, exists, the fact that Deity has not seen fit to force the rules upon society and has instead chosen to give to mankind the agency to choose to obey or not, and the fact that a person can, by breaking the divine rules subvert the rights of another, and the fact that the punishment Deity chooses to inflict does not occur instantaneously by a bolt of lightning out of the clouds, does not make those rules less true, nor does it make them less effective in bringing about stable, happy, and productive societies when followed.

I for one am grateful that I (and you) have agency, that we are not forced to follow a perfectly "good" path by a heavy handed god of instant justice. That instead we are given rights and rules of conduct that protect those rights. Often those rules of conduct are coded into the laws of just societies. That we are given the opportunity to "choose" to be "good" to the best of our conscience and ability.

Yes, this does lead to abuses of all kinds. Imperfect people lead our countries, some more evil than others. Greedy people seem to be drawn like moths to the flame of the seats of power that lead our nations.

But I submit that this view leads to more hope than the other (the no-god view) as it promises us that as we improve our societies in following the laws of God, we will obtain a greater measure of happiness. The only true way to improve our society is by improving the individual, and that is done by improving ourselves. And by trying to choose leaders who are committed to preserving the rights and rules established by Diety.

I cannot improve you, and you cannot improve me, as the attempt will only serve to create anger and friction, leading ultimately to hate and killing. This is why I believe that the attempt to legislate "morality" is doomed to failure. However if I share with you a moral concept, and you find that the concept seems good to you, maybe you will embrace that concept and change yourself, and similarly, if I learn a new moral concept by studying the wisdom of Confucious or the Tao, or Zoroaster, or the Bible, or the Koran, or learn it by discussing it with you (Generic you meaning all my friends here in Ufieland) and find that it seems good, I can embrace that as part of me and change myself, and thus is society changed, by however infinitesimal (sp?) amount, for the better.

Gee, I have been writing way too much and way too deeply lately. I yield up the soapbox for someone else to use :-) I promise, tomorrow, no heavy postings :D

Hmmmm... reading through this I better go get my asbestos overalls on =D

Ed
[ Reply ]
                                Not bad at all, for a godchild. by Naruki2002-07-09 15:57:51
                                Ahh but by slacktime2002-07-09 16:10:35
                                Totally wrong. by Naruki2002-07-09 17:36:42
                                Ah Naruki too bad by slacktime2002-07-09 22:08:48
                                It would be nice by tigermouse2002-07-09 16:42:19

 

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